THE WELCH COMPANY
440 Davis Court #1602
San Francisco, CA 94111-2496
415 781 5700
rodwelch@pacbell.net


S U M M A R Y


DIARY: October 15, 2004 11:22 PM Friday; Rod Welch

Gary investigates expanding existing roles for using SDS.

1...Summary/Objective
2...Operations Assistant Role Expanded Using SDS Research Shows Potential
........Law Contract Policy Implementation Degrades to Human Biology
........Biology Drives Performance of Least Effort Authority Ignored
........Information Overload Hectec Schedule Productivity Paralyzed
........Not Enough Time to Think New World Order Constant Meetings
........Busy Being Busy Information Overload Paralyzes Productivity
........Executive Assistant Leadership Aide Analyst
........Intelligence Scope of Services Communication Metrics
........Operations Good Candidate for SDS Support to Get Things Done
........8.Steps Apply SDS for Scope of Services Defined by USACE
........SDS Enables Many Support Roles for Intelligence on the Job

ACTION ITEMS.................. Click here to comment!

1...Subjects assign to Gary's analysis of new work role.
2...What about capturing the record, the scribe, the stenographer role
3...This excellent research can be followed with feedback from the OA on
4...Called Gary on his letter. He plans to follow up with Gil about he
5...Define the Responsibilities and Authorities of the role

CONTACTS 

SUBJECTS
OA Operations Assistant Role Expanded Using SDS Research Shows Poten
Com Analyst Define New Work Role Professional Role Retool Skills Con
Prevention Hard to Sell Companies Trying to Save Money Avoid Front-e
COO New Role Allocate Time for Organizational Memory So CEO Has Time
Work Role Intelligence Change Structure of Organizations Required Me
Maltese Falcon Movie from 1940s Illustrates Secretary Work Role Impo

1408 -
1408 -    ..
1409 - Summary/Objective
1410 -
141001 - Follow up ref SDS 22 TX4H.
141002 -
141003 - Gary has begun research on finding correlations between using SDS for
141004 - intelligence support and existing roles in the work place, toward
141005 - completing the ASB.  He plans to follow up with Nancy on applying SDS
141006 - to the OA position, ref SDS 0 1Z7O, and Gary will talk to Gil for
141007 - ideas on deployment to implement SDS for operations management to get
141008 - things done. ref SDS 0 TO5J  There are three (3) levels of deployment
141009 - for responsibilities and authorities using SDS:  (1) is generic using
141010 - the plan, perform, report intelligence support model; (2) is using the
141011 - eight (8) steps for Com Metrics; and (3) uses the scope of services
141012 - specified for large scale operations prepared by the US Army Corps of
141013 - Engineers. ref SDS 0 ON4P
141015 -  ..
141016 - Submitted an email to Gary congratulating on excellent research and
141017 - analysis, with action items for completing the ASB.
141018 -
141019 -                   [On 041206 letter to follow up progress. ref SDS 26
141020 -                   WX3W
141022 -  ..
141023 - Subjects assign to Gary's analysis of new work role.
141024 -
141025 -
141026 -
141027 -
141029 -  ..
1411 -
1412 -
1413 - Progress
1414 -
141401 - Operations Assistant Role Expanded Using SDS Research Shows Potential
141402 -
141403 - Received ref DRT 1 0001 from Gary reporting on discussions with the
141404 - Operations Assistant for his group.
141406 -  ..
141407 - This research addresses Woody's comments Wednesday on applying SDS to
141408 - strengthen existing roles. ref SDS 22 WV5J
141410 -  ..
141411 - Gary says in his letter...
141412 -
141413 -    1.  Yesterday I talked with our OA, Nancy ********, about the OA
141414 -        position at Aerospace company. ref DRT 1 0001
141416 -         ..
141417 -    2.  Nancy has been the Executive Assistant to the president in
141418 -        other companies, ref DRT 1 SN5L, where she was an strong part
141419 -        of his operations, doing such things as
141420 -
141421 -           •  Shepherding documents through the Public Utilities
141422 -              Commission approval cycles, ref DRT 1 SN5L
141424 -  ..
141425 - This coordinating task can apply the SDS plan, perform, report
141426 - process, similar to medical management illustrated by the record on
141427 - 040517. ref SDS 20 0000, and more recently on 041015. ref SDS 23 0001
141429 -  ..
141430 - Nancy's work, and particularly her prior experience fits the model
141431 - using SDS for intelligence support inherent to roles listed from
141432 - reviewing the discussion with Woody on 041013. ref SDS 22 WV5J
141434 -  ..
141435 - Gary continues...
141436 -
141437 -           •  Arranging confidentiality agreements with all parties to
141438 -              sensitive business discussions, ref DRT 1 PQ63
141440 -               ..
141441 -           •  Arranging high level meetings, ref DRT 1 PQ66
141443 -         ..
141444 -    3.  In short, she had high levels of responsibility with respect to
141445 -        assisting the company president in important aspects of his
141446 -        job. ref DRT 1 PQ6N
141448 -  ..
141449 - What about capturing the record, the scribe, the stenographer role
141450 - that made management productive in the 20s - 60s, illustrated in the
141451 - "Maltese Falcom" movie, reviewed on 020927? ref SDS 19 EL7G
141452 -
141453 -     [On 041102 Gil's letter lists "OA" position as primary target for
141454 -     deploying SDS. ref SDS 24 9Z9G
141456 -  ..
141457 - Gary continues with the OA duties...
141458 -
141459 -    4.  Not so at Aerospace company. ref DRT 1 PQ73
141460 -
141461 -           1.  She has no formal job description beyond the simple
141462 -               verbiage in the job requisition under which she was
141463 -               hired. ref DRT 1 PQ73
141465 -                ..
141466 -           2.  Since there is no such description, there is no
141467 -               training. She learns as she goes by doing, asking
141468 -               others, and sometimes asking another OA. ref DRT 1 XR7N
141470 -                ..
141471 -           3.  There is no OA organization, so information sharing is
141472 -               not organized in any way, it just sort of happens.
141473 -               ref DRT 1 XR8R
141475 -  ..
141476 - This presents an opportunity for someone to add value to the OA
141477 - position by following Gary's path of providing "intelligence support."
141478 -
141479 -                   [On 041102 Gil's letter lists "OA" position as
141480 -                   primary target for deploying SDS. ref SDS 24 9Z9G
141481 -
141482 -                   [On 041206 letter to follow up progress. ref SDS 26
141483 -                   WX3W
141485 -                ..
141486 -           4.  The managers she supports have no idea what an OA can do
141487 -               for them beyond the simply administrative, so she gets
141488 -               asked to do such things as. ref DRT 1 XR8U
141489 -
141490 -               1.  Order supplies, ref DRT 1 XR8U
141492 -                    ..
141493 -               2.  Oversee the coffee club, ref DRT 1 PS91
141495 -                    ..
141496 -               3.  Complete travel authorizations, ref DRT 1 PS93
141498 -                    ..
141499 -               4.  Fill out expense reports, ref DRT 1 PS95
141501 -                    ..
141502 -               5.  Make the occasional phone call, ref DRT 1 PS97
141504 -                    ..
141505 -               6.  Whatever else her diligence can find to be helpful,
141506 -                   such as filling the local printer with paper each
141507 -                   morning, ref DRT 1 PS9O
141509 -         ..
141510 -    5.  I talked with her for more than an hour, showing her SDS (which
141511 -        impressed her mightily), and trying to see how a Knowledge
141512 -        Assistant role might work at Aerospace company. It took that long to
141513 -        become certain that I hadn't overlooked some possibility of
141514 -        organization. I am now convinced that Aerospace company handles OAs the
141515 -        same way as everyone else -- there is not description of the
141516 -        job tasks and responsibilities, no training, no organized
141517 -        information sharing. People are hired, helped a bit to get
141518 -        acclimated, and turned loose with the expectation that they
141519 -        will adapt their experience to the new situation on their own.
141520 -        ref DRT 1 PS44
141522 -  ..
141523 - This excellent research can be followed with feedback from the OA on
141524 - how SDS might add value to the OA work role based on prior experience
141525 - providing executive support. ref SDS 0 OL9Q
141526 -
141527 -     [On 041102 Gil's letter lists "OA" position as primary target for
141528 -     deploying SDS. ref SDS 24 9Z9G
141530 -  ..
141531 - Gary continues...
141532 -
141533 -    6.  The only areas in which this isn't true are such places as
141534 -        configuration management and process development where there
141535 -        are at least defining documents. ref DRT 1 PS54
141536 -
141537 -
141538 -
141539 -
1416 -

SUBJECTS
Contracts When in Doubt Best Policy about What to Do is to   llow th

1503 -
150401 -         ..
150402 -        Law Contract Policy Implementation Degrades to Human Biology
150403 -        Biology Drives Performance of Least Effort Authority Ignored
150404 -
150406 -         ..
150407 -    7.  Needless to say, where there are defining documents and
150408 -        policies, they are seldom read. Experience indicates that if
150409 -        you really understand the policies that apply to your job and
150410 -        attempt to you them, you are pretty much in the minority if not
150411 -        alone. I find it ironic that engineers are more likely to
150412 -        conform to the existing policies (at least the technical ones).
150413 -        There are always the clerk-level mentalities that insist on
150414 -        following some misinterpretation of policy or what they were
150415 -        told is the policy. Experimentation often shows that what is
150416 -        insisted on as being policy is either not documented or is
150417 -        different from what it is claimed to be. ref DRT 1 PS57
150419 -  ..
150420 - Gary reviewed these issues previously on 011006. ref SDS 16 O99K
150421 - Later, on 020315 difficulty following contracts, policy, and
150422 - procedures (i.e., requirements) was reported again. ref SDS 17 NB5H
150423 - and ref SDS 17 0113
150425 -  ..
150426 - Gary's letter today continues...
150427 -
150428 -    8.  This isn't just a diatribe on the Aerospace company situation, but a
150429 -        description of an all too prevalent condition in the business
150430 -        world -- hardly anyone follows there own policies correctly
150431 -        even when they have them, which isn't as often as one would
150432 -        think. It may be possible to sell people based on the
150433 -        theoretical nature of the organization, because many may really
150434 -        believe that the organization largely conforms to policy.
150435 -        ref DRT 1 PS68
150437 -  ..
150438 - POIMS explains lineaments of systemic bad management. ref OF 3 YZ4I
150440 -  ..
150441 - Review on 961105 shows limited time drives people to take short cuts,
150442 - rather than follow requirements and commitments. ref SDS 8 6121  Feel
150443 - good management is a dominant force performing daily work, reported on
150444 - 911123. ref SDS 2 1331  On 010908 Jack Park reported that laziness
150445 - causes short cuts on using good management. ref SDS 15 0001
150447 -  ..
150448 - SDS is designed to enable consistent use of good mangement by making
150449 - adding alignment fast and easy to show application of requirements in
150450 - law, contract, policy, procedure, and commitments.  If the work is
150451 - not fast and easy, then performance degrades to actions that are fast
150452 - and easy until resistance is encountered.
150453 -
150454 -
150455 -
150456 -
150457 -
150458 -
1505 -

SUBJECTS
Work Role Solve Problem Meetings Constant Too Many Productivity Fall
Hectec Busy Being Busy Not Enough Time to Think Continual Bumbling I
Chief of Staff Hired Solve Problem Constant Meetings Get Things Done

3405 -
340601 -         ..
340602 -        Information Overload Hectec Schedule Productivity Paralyzed
340603 -        Not Enough Time to Think New World Order Constant Meetings
340604 -        Busy Being Busy Information Overload Paralyzes Productivity
340605 -
340606 -        Follow up ref SDS 21 6KO8,
340608 -         ..
340609 -    9.  Discussion with Nancy indicates that the situation with Steve
340610 -        is totally classic -- he is so busy that he has no time to
340611 -        think, no time to insure that actions are followed up, no time
340612 -        to pass the information on assuming that he does capture it
340613 -        (which he does reasonably well in initial notes that seldom go
340614 -        any further), and no time to do an effective job of delegating
340615 -        since delegating requires passing along sufficient information
340616 -        to do the job along with the authority. He engages Nancy hardly
340617 -        at all, so having an OA does him very little good, particularly
340618 -        compared to the value she could provide. ref DRT 1 PT37
340619 -
340620 -            [On 041110 Gary discusses poor productivity of meetings
340621 -            beginning with not enough time to prepare and distribute an
340622 -            agenda. ref SDS 25 O74O
340624 -  ..
340625 - POIMS explains lineaments of systemic bad management. ref OF 3 YZ4I
340627 -  ..
340628 - See above on biological drives that encourage short cuts on good
340629 - management, which cascade mistake into rework that compound the
340630 - problem of limited time. ref SDS 0 S25M
340632 -  ..
340633 - The common problem of "too busy being busy to get anything done,
340634 - because there is no time to think" was encountered by Millie working
340635 - with UCSF a few days ago on 041012. ref SDS 21 6KO8  Another example
340636 - is working with Dave at Intel on 960223. ref SDS 6 4992  Gary reported
340637 - the problem on a prior project on 011006. ref SDS 16 O99K
340639 -  ..
340640 - Gary mentioned in a telecon that Steve has been promoted to an
340641 - Assistant Deputy for his boss, and so is hiring a Chief of Staff to
340642 - help get things done.  Apparently, there is no "Chief of Staff" role
340643 - in Aerospace company's list of jobs, but the practice is to find a job
340644 - description that meetings the employees requirements for payment, and
340645 - put in a request to personnel for that job description, then hire the
340646 - person already selected and give them the duties of a Chief of Staff.
340648 -  ..
340649 - Will Steve's Chief of Staff execute duties recommended for successful
340650 - CEOs who grab a pen at meetings and write things down, in order to get
340651 - things done, reported on 990625. ref SDS 11 0460  Why can't Nancy or
340652 - Gary do this?
340654 -  ..
340655 - Gary explained the new hire is coming from St. Louis, and formerly
340656 - worked with Steve, so there is some history and confidence in this
340657 - individual.
340659 -  ..
340660 - The relationship between the new Chife of Staff position, and the the
340661 - Operations Assistant (OA) is worked out on the scene.
340663 -  ..
340664 - A large part of a middle manager's goal is to achieve visibility for
340665 - advancement, which places a premium on looking and sounding good,
340666 - reported at IBM on 920402, ref SDS 4 0344, and later at Intel on
340667 - 960103. ref SDS 5 8409  Visibility from attending a lot of meetings
340668 - places a premium on appearances, as an actor in the movies, though
340669 - without the preparation of a professional writing the lines, and
340670 - without rehersal to deliver the lines, see POIMS. ref OF 7 6944  When
340671 - performance that looks good is more critical to advancement than being
340672 - accurate and thorough, Murphy's Law goes on the march, reviewed in
340673 - NWO. ref OF 12 0637
340674 -
340675 -
340676 -
340677 -
340678 -
340679 -
340680 -
340681 -
340682 -
3407 -

SUBJECTS
Default Null Subject Account for Blank Record

3503 -
350401 -         ..
350402 -        Executive Assistant Leadership Aide Analyst
350403 -        Intelligence Scope of Services Communication Metrics
350404 -        Operations Good Candidate for SDS Support to Get Things Done
350405 -
350406 -
350407 -   10.  Roles Similar to Comm Manager
350408 -
350409 -        On paper, a role similar to Executive Assistant is what we are
350410 -        describing -- responsibility for maintaining the record,
350411 -        disseminating information, doing the follow-up necessary to see
350412 -        that actions get addressed, and providing organized information
350413 -        to the group, particularly the manager, he supports.
350415 -         ..
350416 -   11.  The roles listed in the 041013...
350417 -
350418 -        Chief Operations Officer
350419 -        Assistant Project Manager................ ref SDS 22 WV5J
350421 -         ..
350422 -        These roles are too high, as they carry a full set of
350423 -        managerial responsibilities, and we have agreed that trying to
350424 -        handle SDS and a full set of management responsibilities is not
350425 -        doable. The Comm Manager role is a full time position which
350426 -        could support these roles.
350428 -  ..
350429 - Called Gary on his letter.  He plans to follow up with Gil about he
350430 - feels SDS can support operations from the COO to Gil's level, and with
350431 - Nancy, per above. ref SDS 0 OM4U
350433 -  ..
350434 - Retooling skills on the job by learning a new way of working requires
350435 - training and support, explained by Ross on 901003. ref SDS 1 QW4V
350437 -  ..
350438 - Operations traditionally connotes getting things done.  SDS support
350439 - for 8 steps of Com Metrics to work intelligently applies the plan,
350440 - perform, report process for command and control of the work.  Gil
350441 - could have important perspective on how to deploy and implement SDS
350442 - for intelligence support.
350444 -  ..
350445 - SDS has been used on projects, e.g., Plumbtree, Broadwater Dam, PG&E,
350446 - and USACE, for getting things done, called out for COO, and Assistant
350447 - Project Manager roles.  See for example the record on 961017, where
350448 - people worried the Com Manager was "directing" the contractor,
350449 - ref SDS 7 1127, and that people get mad when feedback conflicts with
350450 - their memory. ref SDS 7 5832  This was resolved by recognizing
350451 - contractors direct themselves, ref SDS 7 0880, based on accurate
350452 - understanding of requirements and commitments, ref SDS 7 1381, and
350453 - that failure to support accurate communications causes people to get
350454 - mad anyway when mistakes cause loss of lives, time, and money.
350456 -  ..
350457 - On Wednesday, 041013 Woody was concerned that using SDS to get things
350458 - done listed in the record on 020708, ref SDS 18 MZ6O, would be
350459 - unsupported marketing claims. ref SDS 22 SE9O
350461 -  ..
350462 - SDS was developed to help figure out what needs to be done, and to get
350463 - things done correctly, on time and within budget, reported on 000723.
350464 - ref SDS 12 KU96
350466 -  ..
350467 - Command Centers, tools, training, expertise, experience, authority and
350468 - resources drive the work.  SDS significantly strengthens command and
350469 - control so there is no need to "direct" anyone, because the record
350470 - enables people to direct themselves, noted by the president of Dutra
350471 - on 970107. ref SDS 9 4953
350473 -  ..
350474 - An example using SDS to get things done is reported earlier in the
350475 - same record for 970107. ref SDS 9 0001  Compare with the record a few
350476 - days ago doing the same thing to help Kaiser. ref SDS 23 0001
350478 -  ..
350479 - The analyst uses 8 steps to capture, and organize the record, identify
350480 - action items from correlating the record (link) with objectives,
350481 - requirements and objectives, brief people before and after meetings,
350482 - write letters for people in charge to provide timely notice for
350483 - getting things done, based on the record; call people to implement the
350484 - plans based on the record.  Operations support for command and control
350485 - of the work driven by the record has proven to be effective.
350487 -  ..
350488 - One notion of a Chief Operations Officer is an executive aide who
350489 - helps the CEO get things done, reported on 990625. ref SDS 11 8183
350491 -  ..
350492 - An example is Craig Barrett who was the COO at Intel when Andy Grove
350493 - was the CEO.  When he moved up from COO to become CEO in May 1998,
350494 - Barrett discontinued the COO role. ref SDS 11 7E54 Intel's stock price
350495 - plunged with the burst of the dot com buble in 2000.  Barrett noted
350496 - that all of Intel's problems were due to economic downturn.  On 000822
350497 - Barrett noted management that "dropped the ball" getting things done.
350498 - ref SDS 13 RX59
350500 -  ..
350501 - Gary continues...
350502 -
350503 -   12.  Scribe, History button, Do What You're Famous For, Secretary
350504 -
350505 -        All these seem similar to me and are at too low a level as
350506 -        conventionally used. They carry the idea of a recording and
350507 -        possibly publishing function without support for getting things
350508 -        done beyond providing an organized record.
350510 -         ..
350511 -   13.  Admittedly, many secretaries had responsibilities that went far
350512 -        beyond that, but it seems to me that this was more because
350513 -        their job was mis-titled than because this is part of the
350514 -        secretary role.
350516 -         ..
350517 -   14.  Recording and providing access to the record is a valuable
350518 -        function (court recorders are essential to the courtroom, for
350519 -        example), but recording is only the first of the 8 steps.
350521 -  ..
350522 - We have been discussing a multi-level implementation, where some folks
350523 - capture the record, others work on more details with the Subject
350524 - Index.
350526 -  ..
350527 - Gary continues...
350528 -
350529 -   15.  (Consider defining the responsibilities of the Comm Manager
350530 -        based on Plan, Perform, Report, and the 8 steps.)
350532 -         ..
350533 -   16.  Administrative Assistant, Executive Aide, Leadership Aide
350534 -
350535 -        These are better in that they involve some proactive
350536 -        responsibility for preparation for meetings, nudging on action
350537 -        items, etc. based on the record.
350539 -  ..
350540 - See background and analysis above. ref SDS 0 113G
350541 -
350542 -
350543 -
350544 -
3506 -

SUBJECTS
Default Null Subject Account for Blank Record

3603 -
360401 -         ..
360402 -        8 Steps Apply SDS for Scope of Services Defined by USACE
360403 -        SDS Enables Many Support Roles for Intelligence on the Job
360404 -
360405 -
360406 -   17.  The point on writing for executives is correct to a point,
360407 -        ref SDS 3 4755
360409 -  ..
360410 - Gary is referencing the record on 911205 when the scope of executive
360411 - support was reviewed.
360413 -  ..
360414 - Gary continues...
360415 -
360416 -   18.  Executives *do* need to write, but there is a sense in which
360417 -        writing "for the record" is seen as a task that requires more
360418 -        formality than writing to understand.  Since executives rarely
360419 -        do either, I am not certain that it matters a lot, but we
360420 -        should be aware of it.
360422 -         ..
360423 -   19.  Intelligence Analyst
360424 -
360425 -        This might work as it doesn't carry a lot of baggage.
360427 -         ..
360428 -   20.  Communication Manager
360429 -
360430 -        The problem I have with this (and with Comm Metrics) is that
360431 -        SDS is about more than communication, though we can stretch the
360432 -        point.
360434 -         ..
360435 -   21.  SDS *does* support communication, and the role *does*
360436 -        communicate, but the role doesn't manage all communications,
360437 -        at least as we have defined it. It would seem that we would
360438 -        need to add secretarial responsibilities to the role (preparing
360439 -        memos, developing presentations, making phone calls, etc.).
360441 -         ..
360442 -   22.  Perhaps you envision these activities as being part of the
360443 -        role.
360445 -         ..
360446 -   23.  Define the Responsibilities and Authorities of the role
360447 -
360448 -        I suggest that we need to gather the responsibilities and
360449 -        authorities of the role in one place that covers them
360450 -        concisely.
360452 -         ..
360453 -   24.  I realize that there are likely many places in the Foundational
360454 -        Documents and the record where elements of the role are
360455 -        discussed, but have we ever created the equivalent of a Job
360456 -        Description for the role we envision?
360458 -  ..
360459 - Need feedback from Gary on meeting objectives of para 24 and 25 based
360460 - on...
360462 -     ..
360463 -    The eight (8) steps using SDS for Com Metrics are listed in the
360464 -    record on 001219. ref SDS 14 4W4L  These have recently been added
360465 -    to POIMS. ref OF 6 685K  NWO also lists scope for analysis to
360466 -    provide intelligence support. ref OF 12 T19F
360468 -     ..
360469 -    The scope of services published by USACE and received in the record
360470 -    on 970418, ref SDS 10 3368, lists...
360471 -
360472 -           Description of work................... ref DRP 4 4929
360473 -           Requirements for the role............. ref DRP 4 JM7O
360474 -           Deliverables.......................... ref DRP 4 7402
360475 -           Checkpoints - Reporting............... ref DRP 4 19E0
360476 -           Action Items.......................... ref DRP 4 19D2
360477 -           Qualifications, skills................ ref DRP 4 7412
360478 -           Training.............................. ref DRP 4 22A4
360480 -  ..
360481 - Gary continues...
360482 -
360483 -   25.  Such a description needn't be terribly long, though the
360484 -        explanation for the functions and the training materials might
360485 -        be substantial.
360487 -         ..
360488 -   26.  Note that this also requires that we define the role of SDS
360489 -        within the organization and as a tool for the role.
360491 -         ..
360492 -   27.  Once we know with some precision and certainty what the role
360493 -        consists of we will be in a much better position to compare it
360494 -        to similar or analogous positions and to choose a name that
360495 -        both describes and communicates.
360497 -  ..
360498 - We don't want to be too rigid.
360500 -  ..
360501 - Ultimately, in the same way that people use wordprocessing and email
360502 - for a wide range of situations without a specification for writing,
360503 - similarly, enhancing these writing tools for working "intelligently"
360504 - has equally broad based application.
360506 -  ..
360507 - Since our plan is introduce SDS as a support role, Gary's approach to
360508 - define the role is an essential exercise, as shown in the eight steps,
360509 - and more fully specified by the USACE scope. ref SDS 0 GF7N
360510 -
360511 -
360512 -
360513 -
360514 -
360515 -
360516 -
360517 -
360518 -
360519 -
3606 -